Shao Ning, Cofounder of AngelCentral and returning guest from Episode 267, joins Jeremy Au to reflect on Southeast Asia’s startup evolution from the fundraising highs of 2021–2023 to today’s disciplined recalibration. They unpack how founders, investors, and angels are adapting to longer fundraising cycles, stricter due diligence, and a renewed focus on cashflow and execution. Shao Ning shares lessons from building AngelCentral, how she balances investing and family life, and what she tells her four sons about navigating an AI-driven future. Their conversation spans shifting market dynamics, founder accountability, and why sustainable growth now matters more than rapid expansion.
06:00 Market highs turned to prolonged winter: After the 2021–2023 boom, the ecosystem faces a slowdown as valuations drop and LPs demand real returns.
10:00 Fundraising timelines doubled: Founders now need up to 18 months to close rounds, making cost control and financial discipline critical to survival.
15:00 Over-optimism gave way to realism: Southeast Asian startups once chased rapid growth across markets, but the focus is shifting back to fundamentals and measured scaling.
17:00 Founders must prioritize business over fundraising: Shao Ning reminds entrepreneurs to build traction and sustainability instead of chasing term sheets or inflated valuations.
19:00 Balance investor advice with founder instinct: Founders should listen but make their own calls, since they understand operations and timing better than their investors.
25:00 Investment discipline returns: AngelCentral halves its annual outflow and targets post-seed founders with real revenue and strong cashflow management.
32:00 Preparing the next generation: Shao Ning urges her sons to combine hard skills with soft skills, invest in themselves, and build adaptability as AI transforms the job market.
Jeremy Au (00:00:00) Hey, Shao Ning. So excited to have you back on the show.
Shao Ning (00:00:02) Thank you, Jeremy. It's good to see you again.
Jeremy Au (00:00:07) It is! You were last on episode 267, which was April 2023.
Shao Ning (00:00:13) Two and a half years ago.
Jeremy Au (00:00:15) Oh my gosh! Two and a half years and almost 300 episodes between now and then. You were back then, I think, in online audio-only interview, and now we're in person. Crazy, right?
Shao Ning (00:00:26) Yes.
Jeremy Au (00:00:27) Good to have you. I'm so excited to have you on the show because I think you're such a resource, role model, and inspiration for so many founders and angels in this system.
Shao Ning (00:00:36) That's very kind of you.
Jeremy Au (00:00:37) Seriously. Hey, I look up to you. So if I look up to you, a lot of people look up to you, right?
Shao Ning (00:00:41) I think we first met when you were still a founder. So you transitioned a lot, from founder to VC. Now you're back in a startup scene again.
Jeremy Au (00:00:49) Yes. It was very unknown. A lot of people don't know that, but yes. At that time, I just sold my company. I was a GM there for a year. I came back to Singapore, the pandemic, and I was exploring having and starting a startup. So I was pitching to you the high-level idea. At the same time, my wife was pregnant with our first kid, and I had agreed with her that I would also explore other roles and talk to recruiters. One of them was Monk's Hill, as well as some other high-growth startups, Series B, C at the time. There were different roles.
Shao Ning (00:01:21) Yeah.
Jeremy Au (00:01:22) So I remember pitching you—we were interested—and then I pulled out because I decided that I would become a VC at Monk's Hill for the next three plus years.
Shao Ning (00:01:34) I think that's what people sometimes are blindsided by. Being a founder, you are actually pretty much a person who is making a commitment, and sometimes the commitment might become too much. And at the same time, you've got to remember that you are not the sole person. You have your spouse, you have your partners, you have your family, you have obligations, and sometimes things just happen. I was just learning this concept called polarity. Companies care for performance, but can you drive it so hard that you forget about the wellbeing of your staff? You can't go to the extreme. So it's the same thing for lives, right? We progress. Seasonality is in life, too. There are times that you've got to focus on yourself, but there are times that you've got to remember what you committed to. And the thing is, entrepreneurship is such a heavy term, right? It's actually a career choice, but I like to say that it's not just a career choice; it's actually a life choice. It's different from committing yourself to become an accountant. You get a CPA, and you become an accountant. If the working environment is something that you do not enjoy, you change your environment. You're still an accountant. But you could quit your job. But when you become a founder, when you decide to quit, the domino effect is not that simple. It's not just simply changing the name card or changing the office address.
Jeremy Au (00:02:40) For me, it was easy because at the time it was only a two-month program.
Shao Ning (00:02:44) An idea at the time.
Jeremy Au (00:02:45) Yeah. So it was just easy to explore and easy to commit. Well, Shao Ning, could you introduce yourself for those who don't know yet?
Shao Ning (00:02:54) Okay, thanks, Jeremy, again. My name is Shao Ning. I was a founder first. I started as a fresh grad when I started my first business, Job Central. Long story short, we exited the business in 2011 after we sold it. I had two and a half years, and then I fully exited the business in 2014. 2015, 2016 was self-discovery, trying to figure out what to do with myself. In that process, I started one or two other businesses. Both didn't work out. So technically, I was also a serial entrepreneur, but I would say I only had one success story.
Then 2017, 2018, I decided that making use of what I have from my exit and also my 14 years of running the business, I think it's actually a good little part of experiences and capital that I could use to give back to the ecosystem. And so at the time, I pitched my husband, who is my business partner, my life partner, and also my co-founder, to start up Angel Central. And so in 2017, we started the community. It was more time filler. It started to take shape towards the end of 2017, and then we decided, "Okay, let's just formally go into setting up a club." So in 2018, we incorporated and formed Angel Central. By then, we had about 200-plus community members, and members were still less than a hundred. But now we are in our sixth year of operation. We have about 130 members. We do syndicates, we still do pitching days. And so that's what I focus on now.
For the past five years, we're very conscious that Angel Central—the reason why it's called Angel Central—is very angel-centric. At the time, we recognized the issue of startup pain of fundraising. I guess we all know what happened the past two years. So with that, I think the investment interests are still there, but I think the investment tone has changed. What investors are looking for—both VCs and Angels—has shifted towards post-MVP, ideally some cash flow already. And investor sentiments have changed. Also, we have been investing for almost 10 to 15 years now. We do have some exits, but I think we still have a big chunk stuck in the middle.
So come 2026, Angel Central, we are going to bring in a little bit more of post-seed, pre-A, ideally you're in your $1 million revenue range with headcounts in office. We're coming up with programs to support founders in this area. And the program will be founder-centric, not just CEO-centric. We will come up with the details. We already did our first run of the cohort. We had five graduates from the program. Feedback has been pretty good. We'll tweak a little bit of the program, and we'll launch it again in 2026.
Jeremy Au (00:05:43) Wow. Fantastic. So many changes, so much dynamics there. For those who want to know more about you, and what it was like for you growing up and your entrepreneurial strategy, check out episode 267. Yeah. Marketing, remarketing. And also it talks about some of your personal life as well and how you grew up.
I think what's interesting is that the past three years has really been interesting—changes that we had from then till today. We were talking about the three types of changes: one is the market changes, the second one we call it like ecosystem or advice changes, and third, of course, is personal changes in terms of how you've changed and grown as a person as well. So perhaps maybe we'll start with the market first.
Shao Ning (00:06:21) In 2023, there was still the peak, right? Oof. It was still like that, and then you had a sharp drop—second half. We just started the second half. Yeah. So 2023 was still... I think personally I was still reeling because when COVID happened, I think all of us were expecting the market to crash. But the market had a sharp V-shape and came back. Yeah. So '22 and '23, as far as the startup ecosystem was concerned, we thought that we couldn't fundraise anymore. Everybody was preparing for 48 months of runway, and then suddenly the fundraising came back. Yeah. And then everybody went into the hyper-spending mindset, and everybody was chasing that dream again, that craziness. Then when winter came in the second half of 2023, I think it was a huge, I will say it was a huge alarm bell for every one of us, but I think nobody thought that it would last that long. In fact, we're still in the winter.
We're just talking that these two years, I think founders have gotten the memo. But on the VC scene, I think VCs are now, in a sense, struggling with the fact that our exits are not strong. LPs are pressing really hard. And in fact, a lot of Western money is not looking at this part of the market now. So I think some of the funds are actually holding onto the most recent fund that they have raised, and they're trying to make it work. In fact, I would say almost 80% of the funds that I invested in have asked for extension. We've signed off on the extension.
Jeremy Au (00:07:47) Yeah. I totally understand. My personal journey is actually relatively similar. Because at the time I was pitching you, and then I joined Monk's Hill. That was in the second half of 2020. At that time, it was quite contrarian because everybody thought VC was dead because of the pandemic. So when I joined, everybody was not sure, but I thought it was a good opportunity.
Shao Ning (00:08:04) I think '21, '22, a lot of funds just finished their third or fourth fund. So they were just starting, right?
Jeremy Au (00:08:11) I helped fund three for Monk's Hill. As that was my first task that I did when I came in the second half of 2020. Yeah. So everyone was quite contrarian, but I helped them raise Fund Three, which was large. And then, but also it was after the raise. So 2021 through 2023 was super hot, exactly like you said. And then the second half of 2023 was when people were like, "Uh-oh, something's happening." Yeah. So I think now we're looking at 2023 to '25. I think you said that founders have gotten the memo, but VCs are struggling.
Shao Ning (00:08:49) I would say VCs got the memo, too. It's just that VCs now need to provide an answer. Previously it was still, "The companies are doing all this," and at that moment, because they had a lot of fresh funds, the war chests were still rich. So they were conservative. They were holding the funds to support portfolio companies. But now, this is two years now. The LPs are like, "Okay, you supported them continuously for two years. What's happening now?".
Jeremy Au (00:09:07) Yeah.
Shao Ning (00:09:08) And unfortunately...
Jeremy Au (00:09:08) So let's talk about the VC side, and then we'll talk about the founder side. You're totally right because one is, there are a bunch of contradictory headline messages, right? One is obviously 2021, '22 is all-time high for fundraising. 2025 is an all-time low, from DealStreetAsia, for new funds raised from LPs by VCs. But also, the report is saying that there's a lot of dry powder still available in the funds. So a little bit of contradictory. You're an LP in many funds.
Shao Ning (00:09:41) I believe there's still dry powder, but the VCs are even more cautious in the way they invest. Usually it's a 30/70 strategy, right? 30% for follow-on, 70% for new investments. But now I think a lot will be conserved to support new companies. In fact, they're asking for support. In fact, some VCs are actually setting up opportunity programs or SPVs internally with their LPs to support later companies in their portfolio. It's putting money where growth is going to be. So I would say the challenge then will be for new companies in the market that are trying to fundraise now as a brand new entrance in the space. It's no longer just about opportunity. It's no longer just about how big you can dream. It's about, "I dream big, and I have executed something concretely. And this is proving to you that there's demand for my product or there's demand for my service, and that's why you need to back me."
Just that conversation now, I think if during the good times, we were telling founders that fundraising is six to nine months. Now, I think it's 18 months.
Jeremy Au (00:10:39) That's the whole runway. It's like the moment you close your round, then you start fundraising for the next one.
Shao Ning (00:10:44) That's why I say—that's why I was sharing just now—I mean, as a previous founder who had never raised, I was always a lot more... my staff knew I was super stingy in the way we used money, right? I think founders need to realize that money is a tool. But it's a tool that you need to really be very conscious about spending it. I think we all know about budget. We all set a budget, but the thing is, we know that we cannot exceed budget. But the thing is, I was shocked when I heard someone asking a question about, "Why do we need to do cost control when there's a budget control?". I'm like, it took a... Yeah. I just never thought that you would see it as something that is overlapping. Yeah. Budget is telling you how much you can spend. Cost is how do you spend it, and if you don't need to spend, you don't spend. When somebody asked that question, it took a few seconds to react.
Jeremy Au (00:11:51) Yeah. So I think there's two planes, right? One for the founders and one for the VCs and the GPs. And I think the VCs, who are the GPs and the LPs—you say that the LPs are pressing the VCs for answers. And the VCs have to think about it. So how are VCs, from your perspective, reacting? Or how are they trying to accommodate these questions from LPs, whether they're Western or Asian?
Shao Ning (00:12:15) I'm an LP in the fund. I'm not a GP in the fund. Even though I think quite a few of them are friends, it's a very candid sharing. Of course, as an LP, I want my exits as well, and I want my returns as well. And I do question some of the decisions made along the way. But I would say at this current juncture, the GPs, within their control, are really helping the founders. They are really on the ground working with some of the, especially founders that they've got a meaningful size within their portfolio. They're working with them directly to structure programs, and they bring in additional funding to support them to get there. And then I know a few VCs also, they are exploring, the SGX is one program that's coming up. Quite a few of the early-stage VCs are involved to support the program. But end of the day, the market needs to be there to support this exit plan. But it's all different paths. It's helping to make it happen. But this is what my husband likes to say, right? End of the day, it's still the founder needs to carry the bigger portion of the work. Because you can have your fundraising IPO program, but end of the day, how much you can IPO at, and whether your stock price stays, it's a performance of the company, right?
Jeremy Au (00:13:10) I mean, at the end of the day, it is the founder who is leading the company, doing the budget control, the cost control, the founder who is answerable to the strategy. And the VC is somebody who is supporting as much as possible.
Shao Ning (00:13:25) Yes.
Jeremy Au (00:13:26) Do you think the worst is over? Do you know right now it's obviously winter. How do you think? I'm curious.
Shao Ning (00:13:32) Personally, I would like to believe that spring is coming. I hope we will go back to the '22, '23 numbers, but definitely spring is coming. In fact, we just closed a syndicate for 730,000. We can see that the investors are still interested. It's just that the mindset is no longer, "Oh, the potential is this." I want to see things done that can convince me concretely that this path is really what you say it's going to be. It's no longer about, "I'm going to do something about this business, and it's going to be assessed, and that's going to get a multiple." The founders need to show a lot more. Even in the current climate, we can see that the investors are still keen. It's just that now the investors are very particular about, "What's your commercial plan?" "Who are the partners you have in place, and what is the market you're already in?". "Show me the sales meetings that you have." "What are the pipelines that you have?". It's to that level. Yeah, you can't be building dreams anymore. You can't be. Yes. Anymore.
Jeremy Au (00:14:38) Yeah. And I think what's interesting is that isn't it something founders should already be doing?
Shao Ning (00:14:43) I think they knew how to do it, but I would say when rising water carries all boats. During that period of time, everybody was so bullish, and everybody was like, "We're investing in the dream." And then we thought, looking at the US, that you can't have that quick exit, quick turnaround. But our markets are different. And I think even for us now, for the founders who actually want to get to a proper IPO, the Southeast Asian estimate is 12 years. Grab and Sea had it, I think, six or seven years, but that was the... I'm not sure if "outlier" is a good word, but they did it pretty fast. But the rest of us, I think we're not that fast. Time's going to take some time. I think during that period, all of us were very hopeful. All of us were very optimistic. But at that time, I think if you remember, we already had that grumble in the market, that "Why are our investments always pre-B? We don't have much B and C series fundraising level." And for a lot of companies, when they get to that level, they've got to leave this part of the world. So some of the companies did go to the US and did leave some marks there. But I would say that period of time, I think we were just overly optimistic, and we were overly ambitious. And to the extent that maybe some of the boardrooms were just too carefree, were too willing to spend to grow rather than focusing on the fundamentals. And sometimes growth—I mean, it's still like that in the sense that if I say that I'm in three markets, I'm more attractive than saying that I'm a one-market play. So at that time, if I have three markets, I could catch more eyes. And when I catch more eyes, capital will come in. So that FOMO within the scene was pretty obvious. Yeah. And FOMO really didn't help.
Jeremy Au (00:16:32) Yeah. I definitely agree about the FOMO, fear of missing out, dynamic was very real. 2021, 2022, at Monk's Hill, we were very much investing, and then suddenly the founder would come in and say, "Hey, we got a term sheet from OpenSpace," or Insignia or somebody else. And then there'd be even more of a rush. Then you become...
Shao Ning (00:16:51) Obliging with the evaluation asking and stuff.
Jeremy Au (00:16:55) Yeah. And to be fair, there's a bit of a power law dynamic that happens where the best founders will always get competing term sheets. But also keeping your head on straight and being able to walk away is also difficult as well.
Shao Ning (00:17:04) I had to remind founders that you didn't start this business to fundraise. You started this business because you believe that you can use this skillset or this knowledge or this domain that you have to solve a problem for a market, right?. But all of us get so caught up with fundraising. All the founders, whenever I was giving that pitch, I'd say, "Focus on growing the business. Focus on growing the foundation. Don't get caught up with this. It's a necessary step that you've got to go through, but that's not the report card that you need to give." And so, "Please remember when you prepare for your pitches and fundraising." Ideally, you can still have two of your co-founders: one person can be 80% on fundraising, 20% on business. The other person, please be 100% on the business. But they always became 100/100. And then the thing is, then you ask him, "So what happened?". So one guy actually said this to me: "We are like zombies. We are told to go in this direction. We just follow. It's expected behavior. You need to get the funding for the business to function." I get it. But if you have a working business, the money will come. Money either comes in through your sales or through the investors who recognize the value that you do. So you don't start by chasing money when you don't have a story to tell.
Jeremy Au (00:17:59) It's a tricky part because, like you, I've been a founder and investor. As a founder, you always listen to your investors because they're older, they're senior, they have white hair, they've done it before. So you can feel a bit disorienting because it feels like you follow what you do, and then it doesn't work out.
Shao Ning (00:18:14) Yeah. So I get that. First of all, if a founder who received investor money, you have that psychology that, "I took something from you." And usually the investors are more senior in terms of profile and age, and usually they're more well known. So they become more, what's a good word to say? They become more directional. They become more instructive in the way you run the business. And I think especially for the younger founders, especially when some of the experiments and testing didn't work out, you tend to just follow. But the thing is, end of the day, you've got to remember that this is your business. If you're told to spend money that you instinctively, intuitively know it's too early or not the right time, you should have spoken up. Maybe not rudely—you still need to know how to couch the response. But you definitely shouldn't. You don't want to get into the bad books, but you should know when is the right time to do this. Because you are in the trench. You are the one dealing with your team. You're the one dealing with your customers. The investors are not. So they will see what they need to say because their experiences are different, too, right? I think that's the challenge. And we talk about this a lot at home. I'm more sympathetic towards the founders, but Ding is like, "Nobody held a gun against your head." And the thing is, you as a founder, you should know how to drive the business when you're going through it, right? And if you think that the investors' feedback are not on the right time or incorrect, know how to manage it because operational decision is still with you.
In fact, one of our portfolio companies in, I think this was early '24, wanted to scale back on his marketing so that he could try to go towards cash-flow positive. Definitely not EBITDA positive, but at least cash flow more comfortable. The board was against it.
Jeremy Au (00:20:09) Oh boy.
Shao Ning (00:20:10) Because from the board's point of view is, "We need to fight for market share."
Jeremy Au (00:20:13) Right.
Shao Ning (00:20:14) And the board will tell you that, "In our way of getting money, we'll back you."
Jeremy Au (00:20:17) Yeah.
Shao Ning (00:20:18) But I... okay, so we have a few stories that say that now, but we also have stories that then never appeared. So you've got to know that people will say what they will say, but you are the one at the steering wheel. You've got to step on the brake when you need to step on the brake. When you can see that your gas is running short, you've got to know what to do. You still can't charge a hundred miles per hour.
Jeremy Au (00:20:41) Wow. I totally empathize with that. And I think what I find most interesting actually is that you as an angel are often the ones talking with the founders, versus the VCs. It's like a three-body problem, right? There are founders, there are the VCs, which are more growth-stage oriented. And then you are one of the, I would say, sophisticated angels who are not hands-off, totally clueless, no idea what's going on. Because you have been a founder, you also understand. So I know that you often act as a bridge communicator or as a coach for these founders. How do you find that role?
Shao Ning (00:21:13) How do I find that role? I think a lot of times, because I'm really a shareholder, and also because we always tell the founders that, "Please, treat me as a sounding board." So we have about—between my husband and me—about 50 companies. And we do more of an account manager concept, right? He has one set that he deals with, but then of course we tell each other what's going on with the companies we each support. Operationally, we do ask the founders to, "If there's something that you are not sure, please talk to us. We will share experience. If we don't know, we can try to find out." And I think a lot of founders are always open to another point of view that they wouldn't mind hearing. I would say in terms of strategy, that helps. But we are also very clear with the founders that I want to know what's going on, so give me at least an email update. Don't just expect me to sign documents when the year comes. And when we receive the reports, I could be like two weeks late, but it's a lot faster. When we see the reports as things that they want us to do to refer, we will try to do it if we have the right contact. If not, usually, I'll ask questions. I'll ask them what's going on. If I know that certain founders are not sending any report—at least an email update—for three, six months, we will reach out. Yeah. So after a while, I think they get it, and then they understand that.
And of course, when we talk to them, I'm not going to tell them that, "Hey, why didn't you do this?". I'm not your teacher. At the end of the day, I respect the decisions that you make, but if we talk about something the previous month, I do want to know what's happening. What's the situation? What's the update? So there are some companies: when they want me to step in a bit more, I'll stay on the board. But if some companies want me to be operational for a while, I will do a project for them. I would charge them for that. As a shareholder, I won't charge when I do updates and all, but if I'm required to be operational with them, I would actually step in, and I will do a two-month project with them or something and work with the staff. But I think that it's also with companies that I will take on the project when I know the companies or the founders are willing to listen and who I would really stick my neck out to, to really do more. Because I know after a while, after you observe them for one, two years, there are some... maybe just the styles are different. And I know some VCs actually will prefer to be more on top of things, and they would probably not be so comfortable.
Jeremy Au (00:23:38) You say that there are founders who listen versus founders who don't listen as much. Can you talk to me about those two different personas?
Shao Ning (00:23:46) Not really "don't listen," but they start to disappear. Yeah. They start... so when you call them, they still talk to you because they still have to guard their relationship. But there are some founders who are just not so disciplined, and it seems to be more fair-weather founders, even though I would say that my approach is actually the same: "Tell me what's going on. Is there anything you need my help with?". I usually come from a finance point of view, right? If I first thing I want to see is your bank account. Second thing is I want to see, are you sending out the invoices? And then, are you chasing the invoices? And then, what's your aging situation? And that's how you know whether you can pay the bills for next month. But some founders are just not so willing to open up. And after a while, you will see that some of them, they would just not want to share that detailed information. And they still give you the, "The sun is bright, the clouds are white, the sky is blue" kind of stuff. So then that will be the time that I know that I just want to see the number, and then at the back of my mind, I cut my loss in terms of my time commitment. Because I would say one key thing that we stick to for our investment discipline is to try to make sure every case that we go in, we are about the same bet size. So if I need to cut loss in terms of my time spent, at least on the finance side, I know my risk is balanced out.
Jeremy Au (00:24:57) I think what's interesting is that you have this disciplined approach, and then obviously it's not just a financial commitment, but also time commitment, right? Because you had to balance and coach. How do you think you've changed your style as an angel in terms of check size, or velocity, or approach over the past three years?
Shao Ning (00:25:11) Past three years, I think overall budget for this asset class has dropped in response to the market. And the good thing is because we are getting some payouts, we're getting some TPAs. So we make sure that for these two years, our outflow is financed by our inflow. So it is balancing that. But I would say frankly, 2021, '22, we got a bit carried away, too. Our investment was going slightly north of even 600,000 a year. Now, we are going to stay within $300,000 within the discipline.
When I started Angel investing, I think it was very exciting because as a newly exited founder, you got a halo effect, right? And everybody wanted to talk to you. And when you hear about new businesses, you felt like you got so much to give and you get so excited about these things. But when I hear the valuations, I was... I was uncomfortable. Seriously, some of the valuation expectations were so high, especially some of the tech spaces they were looking at. Barely six months in, you're expecting $4.5 million USD. So that was uncomfortable. But because we had decided then that angel investing was going to be our professional focus, we decided that, "Okay, we will become more liberal." Because when we started, one of the checklist was the average valuation that two of us would accept—blended valuation for pre-A—we cannot accept beyond $8 million USD. But during that period of time, if I kept to that rule, I couldn't find any deal. Right? So that's why we became flexible about that. But then at the gut level, it was still very uncomfortable.
Coming to this three years, I would say I'm more back to the original focus. And I think in a sense that startups have to graduate into a business. You start as a micro-SME, then you become an SME. Before you become a mid-sized company, you've got to go through that phase and that mindset transition. I'm glad to see that more founders are adopting the business founder mindset. They're no longer just this startup founder/CEO with a halo effect. So that transition is happening, and I say, as an investor, I'm happy to see that. And our tone towards a founder is never about, "I know you need to get to your hockey stick." But I don't mind you having the hockey stick to be on a smaller scale. But I would like you to really get to cash-flow positive. Because when you're cash-flow positive, frankly, the wellbeing of the founders are on a different level. You can sleep better at night. You don't worry about paychecks, because I think as a founder, I would like to think that most of us are fundamentally mindful that we know when the employees are working for us, they're entrusting their life dependency on us. So that paycheck actually is important. So it's really important that you can meet the month's paycheck, and it's only when a cash-flow positive or your bank account is healthy that you can do that properly. You will feel a lot better as a human being.
Shao Ning (00:28:34) And then you can do a lot better in your job.
Jeremy Au (00:28:35) Yeah, for sure.
Jeremy Au (00:28:39) And I think what's interesting is that you're also talking about not just obviously angel investing, but also talking about your own financial investment strategy and philosophy.
Shao Ning (00:28:47) Yeah.
Jeremy Au (00:28:47) FIRE, like your own, so how do you think and approach that from your perspective?
Shao Ning (00:28:51) I never thought I would stop working with a paycheck at such a young age. So I technically stopped working when I was 38, and then after that, transitioned into an investor profile. The theory is all from my husband. I'll say that he's the brain, right? We actually are very disciplined because we used to run the company together. So even till now, the two of us will do a Monday financial conversation on the sixth of every month. We'll spend about 60 to 90 minutes discussing what happened this month and what are we going to do next month. At year-end, we'll do a closing of the books, to talk about next year, how much we need to set aside for household budget and all. So that is the budget side. And then we also budget for what are we going to invest in, how much are we going to put into equity, and what direction we're going to go. Yeah. And so it happens on a discipline level. I'm still more of the conservative spender, but my husband has proudly announced to the world that he wants to travel at least 90 days a year.
Jeremy Au (00:29:50) Are you joining him?
Shao Ning (00:29:52) So I'm part of that 90 days, and I think our friends know that the two of us are like twins wherever he is. In fact, he's playing pickleball now, and he's like, "Why are you not coming?". I was like, "I agreed with Jeremy to do the podcast."
Jeremy Au (00:30:04) Thank you for the sacrifice. Yeah.
Shao Ning (00:30:05) So we do things together, and so we'll go travel together. Our goal for finance actually is we need to safeguard whatever we had earned. And the idea is, I have four boys, so we'll pass down some to them. But I think the idea is they will be looked after in a certain way, but not to the extent to spoil them so they don't have to work anymore. But the idea is we'll give them enough so that they can have a good footing, but we'll still spend a lot on ourselves. Portfolio management, diversification, and knowing where to put our money. And we do not want to be a slave to money. Now we're still functioning, we're still moving. We still want to explore the world. We want to explore not just about the world, but also different things that we could do. So we spend time volunteering. Yeah. So we portfolio manage our life and our time as well. Yeah. So we try to still do things that keep this part going and keep the family fed and happy and keep each other company.
Jeremy Au (00:31:03) Amazing. So sweet and romantic.
Shao Ning (00:31:07) We'll do things to make sure that we spend time with each other, and we learn to live with each other. We're very different. I'm Taiwanese born, and then he's totally Western. So when we came together, there were times when we'd start quarreling. I was screaming in Chinese, and he would totally pause. He'd be like, "What did you just say? Can you translate that?".
Jeremy Au (00:31:33) That's a good timeout.
Shao Ning (00:31:35) Yeah. So finance is something that I feel is a very big part of everybody's life. And I would say we are blessed in the situation that we have. It's an asset that we want to continue building to support the family, but at the same time, we've got to make sure that it's used well. So that's actually the challenge.
Jeremy Au (00:31:54) And I'm curious, because you have four boys and I know their age range as well. Any advice you're giving them in this world of AI, or as they think about their jobs, university careers? Are you telling them to do more coding, less coding?
Shao Ning (00:32:05) So my oldest one is Year Three in NUS. He's doing computer engineering. My number two is Year Two in NUS. He's doing law. And I told them, "The two of you, you're going to graduate in two to three years' time. Chances are what you can do in the first five years of your job will be replaced by AI." We don't know whether, at the current juncture, we can see the unemployment rates. In fact, I just saw a post of the top five degrees that cannot find a job or something. There's a chart on LinkedIn right now. For these two, in fact, for all four. Number three started playing with dogs a little bit. Number four is too young.
For these three, especially these two, the two big ones, our message to them is, "You are in a lucky position. So you need to behave like you know how to manage your asset. So you've got to learn how to manage your asset. Your asset is your youth, your time, your knowledge, your brain, and your career." So don't be hung up about what you need to do. Your degree is definitely important. I'm still traditional in that sense. Your paper is still going to be important because I believe that gives you that sense of confidence and, at the same time, that sense of your position, your footing in life. But beyond that, are you going to really work as a comm engineer or are you going to work as an entry-level lawyer? It's really up to you. But I know when the time comes, I'll still say, "At least go and try for a year or two. At least, what is it like?". Right. Then after that, just know that you've got to learn how to invest. You've got to learn how to manage your asset. And yeah, and I'm never the A-plus, A-star kind of mother. I think at the end of the day, they need to be responsible for themselves. I will look after them to a certain level. At a certain age, they can still explore, they can still discover themselves. I don't even mind them doing a gap year. And in fact, a Master's we will probably sponsor. I'm not sponsoring. Okay, if they're watching a video—not sponsoring the full sum. I'll help some, but not the full sum. But you've got to manage your life, and then you've got to be responsible to take charge of that, right?
Jeremy Au (00:34:06) I think what's interesting is, like you said, law is something that's getting automated by AI. Engineering is also getting automated by AI. Do you feel like, "Ah, they'll figure it out," or it's actually a benefit for them? I'm just curious what can be... No, I'm worried and not just for...
Shao Ning (00:34:20) I'm actually worried for all the young people. Are they still the Gen Z? Okay. I don't really know the categorization, but I actually am worried about this phenomenon: AI is taking over jobs. I probably belong to the "glass is half empty" camp. Knowing my own family, I know where the kids stand, so I'm not so worried about them. But in general, because of the volunteer work that I do, we do have a big segment that could really get caught. Yeah. We still have families that we are still talking about, "How do we get a laptop into the house? How do we get them to learn how to use AI and stuff?". Start with the gadgets first, and then you move on to how to use the AI. Yeah, I think on a bigger scale—I'm not a politician—but on a bigger scale, just looking at Singapore, I think we still have a pretty big proportion who needs to be transitioned quickly.
Jeremy Au (00:35:33) Even the problem is...
Shao Ning (00:35:34) Quickly from my point of view. But it's attitude, right? It's attitude, it's also a family.
Jeremy Au (00:35:40) It's also very difficult, right? As you said, it is. First of all, there's the individual who's learning. There's the family dynamics, whether it's culturally or socially. Peer circles, whether they should learn AI. So those are...
Shao Ning (00:35:54) Those are beyond our control. From what we can see in the market, the fear of job loss is very real. And in fact, I think it will happen for sure. I do hear some friends who are doing creative freelancer work; they're not getting projects anymore. Difficult. Yeah. Coming back to the boys, one of the key thing I tell them is, whatever you do, your soft skills are actually going to be equally important. In fact, with AI, the remote working trend itself is moving again. But even with remote working or on-site working, your soft skills are a must.
Jeremy Au (00:36:26) Yeah. Any parting words of advice for the Gen Zs, the people who are the age of your sons, or any advice you would give them?
Shao Ning (00:36:35) I would say the 20-year-olds pre-this... Yeah, because before you enter the work market, or in the first two, three years of the workforce, I think the upheavals are going to be really real. Ideally, if you can get the resource and the time, invest in yourself. Invest in yourself. Build up your credentials, up your experiences, and I think that will be a lifelong asset that you're going to have. Yeah. I sound like an old hack somehow.
Jeremy Au (00:37:04) You're like, "Oh, that's what I said to them last week." No, thank you so much. I'd love to summarize the three big takeaways. First of all, thanks so much for sharing about the market changes really over the past three years. The boom times, now the bust, but...
Shao Ning (00:37:21) Springtime is coming.
Jeremy Au (00:37:22) But spring is coming. So thank you for that, number one. Number two, I think it was interesting to hear you segment that into founders who have received the message versus VCs who are figuring out how to add value and support and exit. Yeah. So I think it's interesting to see that live reality. And lastly, thanks so much for sharing about your own personal approach to angel investing, family, and also thinking about Gen Z as well.
Shao Ning (00:37:50) Thank you very much. Thanks, Jeremy.
